Health and Welfare of your HPR Gundog

[petermac]

We all have opinions on whether tail docking is sensible or not and a lot of opinions voiced both for and against docking. Feel free to have your say.

For myself the current law is stupid.

In Germany, the homeland of many of our continental HPR's, docking has been banned since 1998 I believe. However, working dogs have an exemption (and in our breed, Drahthaars, if you wish to compete in working tests, the Hegewald and stud shows the dog must be docked as it is a working breed). In 2002 onwards docked dogs bred in Germany could be shown only if they had a valid exemption, but that means all Drahthaars can).

The UK law allows a docking exemption for working dogs in theory - great - except that it bans all docked dogs, exempted or not, from any show where the public pay to get in (with anomolies eg. its not OK to dock in Scotland but OK to show English docked dogs at any show there).

So now you have to choose between breeding working dogs (including imports) or show dogs. So much for encouraging us to breed better dogs.

Peter

[aevita]

Although I can understand your point of view, in Holland we don't dock for over 6 years now. All our wirehaires who work andd have not been docked are still complete, because none of them had problems with the long tails. The point is to have a good tailset, together with the right hairstructure, so there is an challenge for the breeders.

Leon Verheugt
van de Tuindershof

Holland

[kiwigwp]

Here in NZ we still dock. The dog breeding community got together (and we are only small) and basically told the government to stick it!!
We are, understandably, proud of our achievement in this. I also have an undocked GWP, and whilst she has never damaged her tail (we don't hunt) the potential to do so is great.

I think the english law is nuts! It is restrictive and draconian...it takes away the breeders rights to keep the breed as it was intended and also limits the publics right to see the breed as it should be seen (only undocked dogs at shows - Crazy)
I understand that Sweden is already trying to change the law back. In Australia they are also banned from docking - but I have seen from pics that show they are still docking just not as short as usual - more like tipping the tail......

Rae

[Maxine]

Hi Leon,

Nice to have you on here and welcome. Yes I know you haven't been able to dock now for a good few years in Holland and in reality the GWP/DD should have the finest coat in the world to protect it so therefore it shouldn't get damaged BUT in practice I do wonder if the very end of it will. The only working GWP I know in the UK that did have a tail did used to make the end of it sore after a days work in thick cover. Time will tell now in the UK as there will be more and more with tails, however at the risk of damage I think a small dock at a few days old rather than an amputation when the dog is full grown is far kinder.

You are totally right the challenge for breeders is going to be the correct tail set and carriage to keep the risk factor to a minimum.

Maxine

[Maxine]

Yes Rae - wouldn't you think the politicians had better things to do

That is interesting in Sweden that they are trying to reverse the ban - I wonder how much damage they have had - do you know

Maxine

[aevita]

I know of a lot of countries who are investigating the damage. Denmark and Sweden are some of them , in Holland they have tried as well. Luckely we can still import docked dogs in Holland, work and show them as well , as long as the docking was in a country where it was still alowed at the date of birth. For instance Belgium has forbidden docking at 1-1-2006 but does not allow the import, showing or working on trials of docked dogs born after that dat. So I have a bitch from Hongaria, docked, born 26 march 2006, and I can work her in Holland but not in Belgium . Hoeree for the European Union and its laws.
Note well, allthough we never had problems with the tails in our kennel yet, I am not against docking, if done properly (which means not necessarry by a vet), and in due time. This is much better than a later amputation. But considering the European laws, I don't think they will change the laws back, so we will have to live with them and make the best of it.

Leon Verheugt
kennel v.d. Tuindershof
Holland
www.weimarsestaande.nl

[Penny Craig]

Hi Leon,
Nice to meet you. I agree with your last post.
I too am a supporter of working dogs being docked (I helped to write the letter which the GWPC issued to DEFRA agruing against the ban, for all the good it did).
However lets make no bones about it, a ban across the board is inevitable and I think it highly unlikely that the UK Government will reverse their decision. As such and since I wish to show AND work my dogs, I will not be docking future litters.
Personally whilst I like the look of a docked GWP with good tail set and carriage, I couldn't say I do not like the look of an undocked GWP - maybe because I am used to dalmatians with their long waggy tails. However, I have also had the misfortune of living with a dalmatian who split her tail purely from wagging it too much (let alone damaging it in undergrowth as we might expect of a GWP) and it took THREE WEEKS of keeping her crated to heal it.
It will be interesting to see how much damage is reported. Certainly anyone with a GWP who suffers tail damage should report it to the GWPC Health Sub Committee who have been asked to keep an account of such cases.
Penny

[petermac]

I am sure in time we will all have to stop docking - who knows if it will be a big issue or not ? Time will tell. If it was the same policy across Europe it would be less of an issue - but then we still have the Pound

For now, with a GWP we have a choice, with a UK bred Deutsch Drahthaar that I wish to take to Germany to VDD organised events, I do not. Undocked dogs are not allowed (though I believe they are in JGHV organised events in Germany).

But it will be a great shame that docked imports from Germany will no longer be able to attend the biggest UK shows. That will put people off importing from Germany, where there is such a large gene pool.

[aevita]

Peter

In reply to your last entry:

Yes, you can compete with an undocked GWP at the VJP and HZP, even VGP of the Jagd Gebrauchs Hunde Verein. Last year I did, and was judged by the chairman of the VDD region I was in. That was just after my bitch was refused for the VDD, so this is also a double political thing. With Weimaraner forinstance you can enter an undocked dog at the breedevents.

About injuries, our weims have much more problems than the GWP.

And I agree that it is not in the best interest of the breed that you are limited in your possibilities. Luckely anough we can still compete in Holland with docked dogs, if they are docked in their homecountry where it is allowed. But this was only after some kynologs went to a civil judge , because the first law in Holland forbit this as well. But the reason that it had to be allowed was the possibility of free enterprise, compitition, and free travelling of persons and goods. So not on a dog basis, but a pure economic one.

Leon

[Maxine]

Hi Leon,

We can't compete at the Hegewald with a DD with a tail - we have asked the Germans and have been told we cannot compete - it HAS to be docked.
Yes maybe you can compete in JGHV tests but cannot compete in the VDD events, Hegewald, Stud shows etc.,

I do know there is a lot of trouble going on at the moment about tail docking and pressure being put on the VDD to allow dogs to compete with tails - it will be interesting to see what happens this summer.

Maxine